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Join me as I engage in a beautiful, inspiriting conversation with Mark Cusack, an ICF certified specialist integrative coach.
Mark shares his personal journey and professional insights on complex orientation, which encompasses gender, identity, relationships, sex, mental health, and self-confidence.
He discusses the challenges and rewards of navigating these intricate aspects of human experience, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and self-discovery.
He also delves into the concept of relationship anarchy, advocating for a more fluid and personalized approach to relationships.
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Meet our guest:
Mark Cusack
Mark is an ICF certified specialist integrative coach.
He's had extensive experience working with clients on issues of complex orientation, which includes considering gender, identity, relationships, sex, mental health, and self-confidence.
He also has his own website called Not Defining.
And you can connect with Mark here:
Meet your host:
Andrea Balboni
Andrea is a certified Sex, Love and Relationships Coach at Lush Coaching.
Her mission is to help people experience as much pleasure and fulfilment in their personal intimate lives as they desire.
From finding love naturally and easily, to deepening connection and resolving conflict, to keeping passion alive over the long-term, I support individuals and couples in all phases of intimate relationships.
Work with me - Book a 30 minute consultation call and learn how coaching with me can help.
Or send me a message here and let’s begin the conversation.
Let’s continue the conversation
Beyond Binary: Exploring Relationship Styles, Gender, and Sexual Orientation with Mark Cusack
Andrea: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Lush Love the podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Balboni. And in this podcast, I explore the nuance and complexity of intimate relationships with thought leaders, teachers, and guides of all kinds so that we can navigate through the intensity of intimacy, the highs and lows of love, the joy and pain of desire, the promises and despair of relationships more easily and allow ourselves to be nourished by deep meaningful connection, passion, and pleasure in all its forms.
I'm here today with Mark Cusack. Mark is an ICF certified specialist integrative coach. He's had extensive experience working with [00:01:00] clients on issues of complex orientation, which includes considering gender, identity, relationships, sex, mental health, and self-confidence.
So many of Mark's clients report that he gets it in ways that other practitioners just don't. Mark combines a deep knowledge of sexuality and gender with a broad range of coaching skills. Mark gives consultancy seminars to trainees, psychotherapists, and psychologists on the topic of complex orientation.
He's a trained diplomat and has presented at countless panels, conferences, and functions alongside some of the top leaders in policy, activism, and philanthropy. He founded Not Defining, an entity that provides information, support, and community for those with complex, undefined, fluid, or mixed orientation, gender, and identity. [00:02:00] Mark supports people in finding their best selves, however they define.
Provides education, group sessions, one-to-one specialist coaching, advocacy, signposting, resources, and lots more through his work directly with people and also through social media. And what I love about Mark is that he does all of this within a welcoming, inclusive, and caring environment. So Mark, welcome to the Conversations Day.
Mark: Thank you so much, Andrea. Thank you for that kind introduction and thank you for having me on your wonderful podcast.
Andrea: No, it is my absolute pleasure.
So as noted from your intro, you understand as much as I do that people are indeed hugely complex and our sexuality more so. So much more than the world often wants us to believe or acknowledge. And what you've done [00:03:00] is you've chosen to acknowledge this fact openly that indeed there is a lot of complexity in how we are as humans.
And what I love is the generosity with which you share your own story. And it's been a journey, I know, on how you come to be the person that you are and do the work that you do today. So I would love it if you could share a little bit of what it is that you do in your own words and how it is that you came to do this work.
Mark: Yeah, sure. Thank you so much. So I basically grew up as somebody who didn't understand the world, the way that it was taught to me.
You know, I grew up in the kind of 90s, 2000s. And at that time, you could kind of be maybe like two things. You had your kind of two options, right? You could be straight and that was good [00:04:00] and right.
Or you could be this kind of wrong, bad thing called gay. And that was kind of terrifying. But you had the two things.
We kind of knew what they were. And so I basically didn't fit into either of those. I thought that, you know, I definitely wasn't straight.
I was like, OK, I'm not that thing. I'm not masculine. I'm not.
I don't know what that is. I was very confused by that. And I was like, well, OK, well, I must be this thing called gay.
And then I was like, oh, no. I'm definitely not that. Oh, OK, well, so what is there? And when I was growing up, there was there was really nothing like I didn't see anybody around me.
I didn't see any role models. There was no education. There was no information.
And so the only thing that I [00:05:00] could conclude was, well, there's something wrong with me. You know, there's something bad about me or there's something broken or maybe I'm in denial or maybe I'm deluded or maybe like this is a phase. So that kind of thought process led me to some really dark places.
I thought that no one would ever love me. I would never be able to have a relationship. I would never fit in with anyone.
I always felt really awkward and out of place. And it was horrible. It was absolutely horrendous.
I sought help from so many different places, friends, family, doctors, therapists, like the whole thing. And nobody knew what on earth was going on with me. And so.
I decided that I was going to understand this, [00:06:00] and so luckily I managed to to do so just through exploring, through speaking to people. And eventually I realized, you know, I've really got to be that source of information for people because it just doesn't exist. And I had some pretty amazing experiences where I was brave enough to talk for the first time and I just spoke from my heart.
I just said who I was, what I was. And, you know, I thought that when I did that, that nobody would understand me. I thought that I was the only one.
I was this weird person. No one was like me. Well, how wrong was I? When I started speaking, first in the context of my work, kind of diversity [00:07:00] and inclusion committee, and then later on social media, hundreds, then thousands, then fast forward to today, tens of thousands of people responded and said, thank you so much for expressing that.
I relate. Thank you so much for saying that you you experienced this because this is what I've experienced. And so the more and more I spoke about it, the more and more people responded.
And then that kind of morphed into actually taking it on as my career. Because when I was speaking on social media, people came to me. They came into my DMs and they were like, please, can you help? Please can I tell you my story? I have all these questions.
And I was like, I have a full time job. I can't cope with this. But I did it more and more and more just out of, [00:08:00] you know, interest and I wanted to help.
But finally, it became too much. And so that's where I kind of built my kind of mentoring group on Patreon. And I kind of trained in coaching.
And now today, I have one on one coaching clients. I have group sessions. We have mentoring community.
We have so many different sources of information. We have a whole YouTube channel where I talk about sexuality and gender relationships, sex and love and self confidence, all from the standpoint of, you know what? It doesn't have to fit into a category. It doesn't have to fit into a box.
And so that's what I love to do today. That's why I'm so glad to be invited on your podcast. Just to be able to talk about things beneath the labels and to talk about the real person beneath.
So that's why [00:09:00] I do. And that's kind of how I came to it. It's been a little bit chaotic.
It's been a journey. But yeah, I'm so glad that that happened because I love what I do. So yeah.
Andrea: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, I can see you're remembering.
And that is a lot. It's a lot, even if you've shared it many times, because it's been, yeah, quite a journey, especially when you're in that space of not seeing things modeled and not having things defined. It's this murky area of uncertainty.
And how we work and function as humans is we prefer certainty to uncertainty. We prefer the convenience of knowing to the uncomfortable space of not [00:10:00] getting what's happening, that murkiness. We just want to go towards something that's recognizable.
When you can't, you're not seeing it. It's not being verbalized and no one's contextualizing it. There's no framework.
There's no context. It's so, so scary. And what I find encouraging and courageous and noble and truthful and brave about your own way through was that even if you hit really dark places and deep shadow and the murkiness, your choice was to row that boat and to get to some somewhere.
And that you have become now the islander. You've become the shore for so many people who are now in that space of, where are we rowing to on this vast ocean? I can't see where I'm going. Okay.
So [00:11:00] I just really want to recommend how much courage that does take and how much dedication it takes as well to stay true to who you are in it and find yourself within it, even if that is a continual evolution, because I'm sure it is because that's how life works. So just when we come to some sort of understanding about where we're at and what we are, it's all of a sudden something shifts, something changes, and then we transform again. We're like, oh my god, I'm out of space.
I'm not knowing why am I here again? I thought I was done. I had like my hands firmly on the edge of the pool. So yeah.
So thank you for that. Thank you for the work you're doing. And I'm sure all of the people that you've helped so far in ways that you can see and probably can't see are so grateful for how you've shown up and inspired [00:12:00] them as well.
Mark: Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Thank you.
Andrea: So many things. I'm curious about if you could speak to a bit the statement you made, which is getting to the person underneath the labels. And there's a nuance there because sometimes the definition and the defining and the label can help us, and then other times it can limit.
And understanding when and what and how that might be helpful or hindering at any one point in time seems something to navigate in all of this as well. So I'm curious to hear about when you're in the label and when that's helpful and when you go underneath and below that label to I'm helping someone maybe understand who and what they actually really truly are and how you dance because it's such a dance, isn't it? That space. [00:13:00]
Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That's a really important question.
And I think at the moment, particularly with the LGBTQ plus community, a lot of people might think that, oh, well, we're seeing more labels. You know, we're seeing pansexual and asexual, aromantic and genderqueer and trans and all of these labels which people are identifying with. And of course, my platform is called Not Defining.
That doesn't mean that we don't use labels. For those who can see this visually, I have the bi pride flag. I have a picture saying queer behind me.
I love labels. They are so empowering. I mean, it's exactly how you said for people who have never felt seen before, for people like myself, like many in our community who have grown up in the darkness, just thinking they're [00:14:00] weird, thinking that there's no space for them to have a label, a flag, a community, a word, terminology, is essential.
Because what it's doing is it is validating your inner experience. And we know from psychology that, of course, it's so important for the inner experience of a person to be mirrored on the outside. And if that doesn't happen, that's where, you know, you can become really, really anxious and depressed and so on.
So labels do that for us. They also allow us to communicate as well. We can't always go around saying, hello, my name is Bach.
And, you know, sometimes I'm attracted to women, but sometimes I'm also attracted to men, but it's different. And sometimes it changes on a Tuesday to a Wednesday. But then also it's romantic with women, but then sometimes it's not.
But then sometimes like we don't [00:15:00] have a time. So to be able to say I'm bi is really helpful. And society understands what that is.
And you can say, okay, great. So I get what you're trying to say. So that they're helpful in so many different ways.
However, however, labels can be really, really restrictive. And in society today, in many places in the world, unfortunately, we have a really restrictive number of terms that people actually understand. And so mainly, we still operate with gay and straight.
Right. And that causes so many problems for people, because they think they have to be one or the other. And of course, they're not.
And, and so a lot of the clients that I [00:16:00] see will come and say, you know, I identify as straight, for example, or I'm in a quote, unquote, hetero relationship, a male female relationship. But I've got all of these feelings, x, y, z. And I'm freaking out. And it's like, well, there's no reason actually for that person to be freaking out.
Because it's very natural to have lots of different feelings. But the problem is that this straight or hetero word becomes a whole identity. And it becomes a whole demographic and a whole way of life and a whole way of being that people hold to.
And so anything that deviates from that causes an identity crisis. And it's, it's not necessary. It's not necessary.
But people think that, okay, if [00:17:00] I'm a man, and I'm with a woman, and I, you know, fancy my mate, or I think, you know, some guy is attractive, that that then means that he must be gay, and he's going to lose his family, he's going to lose his wife, it's all going to be terrible, you know. And it's just like, no, we've invented this binary dichotomy. We've invented this whole thing.
It's not real. It's not real. You're a natural, normal person.
And actually, if you look at people who identify as straight, they are the most diverse label out there. Because one straight person could be totally different to another. So what I love to do in that situation, is to actually take the person and go, okay, let's just leave labels aside for a moment.
Okay, we can bring them back later. But let's look at you. Let's [00:18:00] look at who you are.
Like, what makes you feel good? What makes you feel pleasure? Like, what types of people are you attracted to? Let's leave out gender. You know, what types of bodies, what types of emotions, like, how do you connect with somebody full stop? Because that's what we're really talking about. When we talk about sexuality, orientation, like, we're not talking about male, female, gay, straight, like, they're kind of the cherry on the cake.
They're like the word that we use to kind of generalize like a whole load of really cool, fun stuff, like attraction, and arousal, and fantasy, and fetish, and intimacy, and affection, and identity. Like, it's all that. So that's what I like to get to.
Like, what are all those things? And then, [00:19:00] when you can understand those things in their beautiful complexity, because we're all unique, we all like different things, then you can choose a label so that you can communicate that to other people because that's really what the label is for. So that's what I try and do.
Andrea: Excellent. I love it. I would ask to what end or to what experience or how do you see people shift as they shift their perspective? Maybe can everyone do that? Is everyone able to? Are most people able to? Maybe the people who come to you are ready, more ready than most or some, I'm not sure. I'm just wondering about that process, how that plays out with the people.
Mark: Yeah, that's a lovely question. And really, everybody is different. Like, there's so many people who just [00:20:00] aren't ready.
I think that the domination of these terms is so great in our society. And it's so ingrained that you really, really have to do some very deep work to dissect and unpack all of the things that come along with those terms. Because it's words, you know, gay, straight, man, woman.
Like, these are not just words. These are huge parts of who we are, who we're brought up as, who we're conditioned as, like how we're supposed to move, speak, walk, talk. It's not just about who we love or who we have sex with.
It's like everything. And so a lot of people aren't ready, and that's absolutely okay. But I think that [00:21:00] in terms of people's journey, what I love the most is that it's all, all, all about authenticity.
I believe that every single person in this world, bar none, is best when they are in their authentic self. Like, it's just a rule of the world. It's just like every, I believe that everybody has inherent goodness and wonder and joy in their authentic self.
And so it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, who you love, who you're attracted to. If you can connect a little more with your authenticity, you will find more joy. You will find more pleasure.
You will be happier. You will be healthier. It's just the way that it is. [00:22:00]
But people are more or less able, or more or less safe, to actually break those things down, break down those barriers, and actually find that for themselves. Or people don't believe you when you kind of say that. They have to discover it for themselves.
And it's, it's not safe for a lot of people, which is okay. So yeah.
Andrea: We certainly live in a world where it can feel very threatening to step into an authentic self, especially if it feels counter-cultural, or what the mainstream does, or what's always been done, or what's happening still in many countries and places in the world where your physical safety is actually threatened if you step into what's a more true version of you, or question the way that things are. [00:23:00]
So stepping from that socialized experience of you within the context of a society and culture and moving into a self-authored space where you decide how and who you are based on the truest knowing of yourself is, is not always easy. Well, as you said, it requires some pretty deep work often, most often, I would say. And then some people can feel that they just don't have enough support around them, or the context doesn't support them or makes it virtually very dangerous, or what feels like an impossibility to do so in any particular time and space.
So for people who do do that work and step into a more authentic self, fantastic and wonderful. And [00:24:00] I'm sure that what I'm hearing from you, I share this is a complete compassion for people who feel like they're just not ready, or can't quite go there, or don't really wanna right now for what it might mean, or how it might change their lives, and how and their families and their community and in their world. So I am so glad that you're here doing this work for those who do feel ready, for those who feel half ready.
You're ready to initiate a conversation or begin to move there, but not necessarily feel the pressure or judgment if they're not fully able, or willing or whatever it is, whatever reason to go there fully, even just beginning that work of unraveling and picking is a beautiful step forward. So [00:25:00] yeah, it's I'm hearing you welcoming people who are at any place in the journey, like ready to go there and like, well, I just need some support, or I'm not really sure what I'm doing. And I may walk away and not do anything that you say, or well, then that you're it sounds to me like you're pretty, pretty open to opening a space for anyone.
Mark: Yeah, I'm really glad that you got that from me, because that's exactly what I'm about. And I just wanted to build on what you said just briefly. Because when I was going through my really, really dark time, I actually engaged with the LGBT community or the kind of queer space at the time, and I actually felt alienation from those spaces a lot of time, partly [00:26:00] because I wasn't gay, cis gay.
And that was kind of all that was going on from what I saw. But also because I was terrified, I was terrified that I was going to be one of those people. And I think that's really, really real for a lot of people.
And so what I really, really love to do is to speak to not only people who identify as LGBT, or not only people who think they might be LGBT, but also to those millions of people around the world who don't connect with that identity, they don't see that in their path. But they may be having feelings about their attractions or their experience or whatever it might be. And it's so important to say to those people, that does not have to be your path.
Like that is [00:27:00] not all there is, you don't have to have rainbows and, you know, go to pride and all of that stuff. That's just one way that some people express things. You know, and those are the people who I think it's almost like most important to reach out to, because they get stuck and they don't have anyone to go to, they feel afraid that if they explore these things, if they open up, that somehow it's going to mean that I'm this or I'm this thing that I don't want to be.
And actually, it's so not that, it's so not what people fear. And that's what I always kind of want to say across the void to people. It's like, I've been there, it's not what you think.
You know, you're going to find the best version of yourself, whatever that means to you. And it doesn't have to look at a certain way. So [00:28:00] yeah, if there's anyone out there who feels that way, yeah, you're not alone.
Andrea: Yeah, I can relate to that for sure, because then I was involved in the Tantra community for a while and felt that I had to be a certain way to fit in. And it's just, you don't, you can experience some of the beauty of these worlds that we intermingle in and not have to have it look a certain way. And I'm not saying I've done this perfectly, for me anyway, it's a continual journey of remembering that how I show up in any one moment, how I present to the world, may or may not be a reflection of what's actually going on inside, because there's so much complexity, how can you even do that? How can you even show up in one way and have that be all of you in a moment? It's just, it's very difficult, I find.
So yes, to the journey, and yes, to [00:29:00] having it look and feel, however, is a perfect fit for you, for any one person. And it doesn't have to become anything more than that, or less. Yeah.
And these are things that I always like to caveat as saying, as if I've embodied the truths of it and live it every day, and that it's a lifelong adventure. Oh yeah. So even sometimes people can look to the coach or to the, maybe in this case, a podcast presenter, as the holder of all the wisdom and the perfectly manifesting of all that messy and sloppy, and here we are. Yeah.
Mark: Yeah, I hope I am not the holder of all wisdom, because people are going to be very disappointed.
Andrea: Okay, so we've spoken a lot about sexuality and all the different ways that [00:30:00] people can experience their sexuality. And what I was also curious about was autism and more fluid experience of sexuality, if you will. And if you might speak to that, how the different intersectionalities of neurodiversity and sexuality may play in someone's experience.
Mark: Yeah, thank you so much for asking that question. I think it's a important one. The neuro diverse spectrum is another spectrum, which I think some people in society are coming to learn more about, which is really good.
And once again, it's lots of labels. You know, we have words like ADHD and anxiety and autism and BPD and all of these kind of [00:31:00] terms. And of course, what they are, just like sexuality, are a spectrum.
All of our brains work in different ways. So that's just what it is. But we've created terms to describe different types of ways that our brains work.
And so there is a correlation which has been researched. They need to do more research on this. That's what has been accepted in the research community.
But there is a correlation between autism and people who have a non-exclusive sexuality or gender. So if you are autistic, you are more likely [00:32:00] to have either non-binary gender, gender fluid, non-cisgender identity. You're also more likely to be bi or pansexual or fluid in your sexuality.
And finally, you're also more likely to be on the asexual or aromantic spectrums. And this is not only found in scientific research, but it's also quite known to people who kind of exist in those communities. I think if you ask autistic people or bi or ace, non-binary people, a lot of people will probably tell you, like, oh, yeah, there's totally a crossover because you will know so many people.
And it's mad. I remember when I first came into bisexual spaces, I was on this committee at work, and of seven [00:33:00] bisexual people, five of them were autistic. And actually, I need to update that because six of them were autistic because one of them was me, but I didn't know yet.
And I think that, you know, I'm not a scientist or anything, but it does make sense to me just as an autistic person who is also on the bi, ace, and non-binary spectrums. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, that's me. It makes sense because for as long as I can remember, my brain just doesn't quite seem to work like most other people.
I don't connect with people in quite the same way, and I don't understand a lot of the things which a lot of people take for granted to understand. And so when it comes to my attractions [00:34:00] or my gender expression, it makes sense that that's the way it is. It doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that if you're autistic, you're going to be, you know, fluid sexuality or anything like that or vice versa.
It absolutely does not. It just means that there is a correlation there. We don't know enough about it, but it exists.
And yeah, a lot of us actually in both sets of spectrums are known to come to it slightly late a lot of the time. A lot of people are diagnosed autistic later on in their life, and bi and ace and non-binary people often come out later than, for example, gay or lesbian people. So it's a really interesting one.
And yeah, I like to talk about my experiences [00:35:00] as a neurodiverse person in much the same way as I did about my sexuality or my gender. I just speak from my heart. I say, well, this is what I experience.
It might not be the same as somebody else, but whenever I do, people respond and they say, thanks for saying that because, you know, I relate or I don't relate, but this is how I experience. And then it's just really nice. So yeah, that's how it kind of works in my view, I guess.
Andrea: Yeah. Thank you for that share, and putting words to things in a way that make the complex more easy to understand and sit with. Thank you.
My last question for you is around relationship anarchy. I was wondering if you could give me a bit of a sense of what that is [00:36:00] for you and, yeah, how we might be with it in the world.
Mark: It sounds like such an extreme thing, doesn't it? Oh my gosh, relationship anarchy. The world is going to end. This is a funny thing, and I'm so glad you asked about it. I do like to harp on about relationship anarchy, so thank you for giving me that opportunity.
The thing about it is that I actually think it's so wonderful, and it is so the way I wish that we could think about relationships more. Relationship anarchy basically is the idea that we shouldn't necessarily have expectations or set ideas or establish norms in our relationships. A relationship anarchist would be somebody who [00:37:00] really wants to connect with a person with a blank slate.
You know, so I meet you, and I don't make any assumptions about you. I don't make any assumptions about the way that our connection is going to be or the rules that should govern it. I just want to connect with you as a person, and then we see.
We have a conversation, we get to know each other, and we communicate how we would like that relationship to be. And it's nothing more than that, but of course, I think people are a bit nervous about it because it's like, oh, well, you know, what? We can't do that. We can't just have relationships based on what we would actually like and what we actually feel and agreement between two people.
It's one of those [00:38:00] things. It's a bit like when I talk about not defining sexuality or gender. You're like, well, what? Like, no, but how can we not define and categorize and restrict and put rules on things? I'm like, well, why do we do that? And so I think it takes a lot of people to get their head around, and that's understandable.
But as somebody who is quite complex or not defining in my neurology, my neurodiversity, my sexuality, my gender, my gender expression, it kind of fits the last piece in the puzzle in terms of like, what kind of relationships I would like. I have struggled my whole life to understand what romantic relationships are supposed to be like, what platonic relationships are supposed to be like, what the rules are, how dating is supposed to go. [00:39:00] How do you flirt with somebody? How do you know when somebody likes you or doesn't? All of these things are really confusing to those of us who don't fit into those normative categories.
And so relationship anarchy or relationship anarchic approach is, it feels really, really right for me. And I love it. So it's really just, like I said, having a blank slate and building relationships based on what you both or more than both feel.
That's it.
Andrea: Cool. So it feels like, again, that territory of the unknown, we're kind of coming full circle here, of the uncertainty and not knowing of what that shape, the thing is supposed to be shaped like, and people freaking out.
It's supposed to look like, give us a template. [00:40:00] Where's the definition? Where's the structure? What am I doing here? And I would say that the defining lines are boundaries. So what feels good to you in any moment? So your internal, what feels good to you and what you're receiving or experiencing from the world.
And then because it's a relationship, considering that boundary space of the other, what feels good for them and what doesn't, and what's overstepping or too much for them. And that's where you get the definition from. That's where you get the defining lines.
That's where you get the tracks on the rails, like you're, you know what I'm trying to say here, the train on the tracks. And again, kind of coming full circle, the thing about [00:41:00] boundaries and internal boundaries. So what comes in and then external boundaries, what you allow out into the world takes so much self-knowing.
First of what your own internal world is, what you want to experience, the exploration that needs to come with that, that curiosity about your experience and what it might be. And then also an ability to attune to another, or if you struggle with attuning or understanding another, having the language or a way of asking, what are you experiencing? What feels good? What doesn't? So that you can understand their boundaries, their internal world, their landscape. And then from there, you construct this thing of, okay, this is how we're going to relate.
And that's called the relationship. And this is what it is. And it could be sexual.
It could be romantic. It could be both. It could be neither.
It could be either. It could be whatever it is, however it is, [00:42:00] is up to that beautiful, like self-knowing and respect of yourself and the other. And an honoring of your own needs and desires, and an honoring of the needs and desires of the other.
And where do those overlap and eclipse? Where can you meet? And where are you just different? And that's okay. And there's enough overlap and enough connection where there is some sort of holding that keeps you in relationship. Or maybe it's just okay.
We're okay being separate or experiencing things only in this more subtle way, more slight way. Yeah, I've never really articulated relationship in that way. So thank you for bringing this in, because it feels like a beautiful way for people to actually come into authentic relationship, coming back to authenticity as well.
Not just with themselves, but also with the world that they live in, the other people that they're coming into connection with, or [00:43:00] interfacing with in some way, if they don't feel connected. Because we don't feel connected to everyone all the time, do we? I don't think anyone does. Nor should we, necessarily.
Unless it's a desire to. If we desire to, okay. And if we don't, okay too.
Mark: Yeah. I just actually haven't heard somebody talk about it in quite as beautiful a way as you just did. That was just perfect.
I love the way that you described the difference between that internal world and the external, and kind of bringing the internal out to connect with somebody. Because that's what we're doing, isn't it? When we are having relationships, we've got our internal world. When we're by ourselves, which we occupy, and we're bringing that out, and we're saying, hey, I want to share this with you.
And then it's [00:44:00] finding the strength, the confidence, and the safety to be able to do that in the most authentic way that you can. And then to have that then held and connected with somebody else. And then that's the wonder of relationship.
And this is the whole concept of not defining. It's about saying, society has given us a set of rules for relationships, how they should look, how they should be, how you should behave, what roles you should have, what the etiquette is, what's right and what's wrong. That's okay.
They're helpful. But let's understand that there's a person underneath that. And let's look at you and what actually feels right to you.
And so you can choose then which ones of those conventions or norms that you want to kind of use or work with. And if there are some which [00:45:00] aren't working for you, which, let's be real, look at the world we live in. How many people have been harmed? How many people have had their lives destroyed? How many people feel depressed and down and just heartbroken and ruined by all of the stupid norms that society has come up with over time? I mean, we could be here all day.
So it's about understanding that those external guidelines are external, and we are allowed to nurture and understand and to connect with what's actually authentic to us, and then have a conversation with how that's going to connect with someone. And it might connect, and it might not. But once you have that, it's like this freedom.
It's like, oh, my gosh, I can actually do what I want. I can actually be who I want. I can actually connect with people.
And it's lovely. [00:46:00] And it's like, oh, my gosh, it's wonderful. So, yeah.
Andrea: Yeah, it's called liberation.
Mark: That's the word. Yeah, it is.
Andrea: I could speak with you all day. And I am going to ask you how if people want more, can they connect with you? Can they learn about your work? What's the best way? Where can they find you?
Mark: If you basically type in not defining or one word into Google, you will find me. So not defining on Instagram, we put out content every day, not defining on TikTok, because I was forced to go on TikTok because people said, you know, you got to be down with Gen Z. And I was like, I'm too old for this.
I'm a millennial, but then I enjoyed it. So not defining on TikTok. We were on Twitter.
But then Mr. Musk took over [00:47:00] and I joined most of the other queer people and left. So I'm now on threads. If anyone has threads, not defining.
And on YouTube. So YouTube, not defining again, it's very, very easy. And I have a website, which is really complicated, you know, going to struggle to remember this www.notdefining.com. So you can come and message me online or come to my website.
We've got a Patreon community, which is like a little private community. We do group sessions, you can chat with me, get mentoring from me. I have my own podcast, which is for my Patreon site.
And we've got loads of resources there. And of course, yeah, I do one on one coaching as well. So yeah, notdefining.com. I would love to hear from you.
Andrea: Reach out to Mark. He is amazing. [00:48:00] I am telling you.
Well, you've heard it today. So thank you. Need I say more? It's been such a pleasure having you on this podcast today.
Thank you so much. And I look forward to the next time we meet.
Mark: Thank you so much. This has been really, really lovely. And thank you for all of your amazing work and for having me on.
Andrea: Thank you for listening. Share this podcast with anyone you feel would benefit from its message. If you love what you've heard, rate and review us wherever you listen. And if you feel that you could use some support, connect with me, Andrea Balboni, through my website, lushcoaching.com. That's L-U-S-H-C-O-A-C-H-I-N-G.com. Special thanks to Nicholas Singer for the musical score and Dion Knight for editing [00:49:00] and production.