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Join me as I dive deep with Michele Paradise, a trauma informed therapist and a relationship coach specializing in supporting people in intimate relationships with narcissists.
From sex as performance to please you, to sex as transactional to placate you the trajectory that intimacy takes with a narcissist is similar to the one your intimate relationship as a whole will take.
Michele shares insights about this trajectory including the dynamics of narcissistic relationships and the patterns of love bombing, devaluation, discard, and hoovering, and the impact on individuals involved.
She discusses childhood experiences that may lead to narcissistic behaviors and the importance of awareness, acceptance, consciousness, and choice in healing and personal growth.
Michele offers a 30-day awareness journal to help listeners build self-awareness and emphasizes the value of seeking support and community in the healing journey.
If you love this episode, Rate and Review us on iTunes
Meet our guest:
Michele Paradise
Michele is a trauma informed therapist and a relationship coach, with 20 years experience.
She has trained in several methodologies with many experts in the field of trauma. Having personally experienced narcissistic relationships, Michele now helps others protect themselves from narcissistic abuse.
She also has her own website called Finding Paradise.
And you can connect with Michele here:
Meet your host:
Andrea Balboni
Andrea is a certified Sex, Love and Relationships Coach at Lush Coaching.
Her mission is to help people experience as much pleasure and fulfilment in their personal intimate lives as they desire.
From finding love naturally and easily, to deepening connection and resolving conflict, to keeping passion alive over the long-term, I support individuals and couples in all phases of intimate relationships.
Work with me - Book a 30 minute consultation call and learn how coaching with me can help.
Or send me a message here and let’s begin the conversation.
Let’s continue the conversation
Sex with a Narcissist: it’s so good...until it’s not with Michele Paradise
Andrea: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Lush Love, the podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Balboni. Through conversations with special guests, we'll navigate the intensity of intimacy, the highs and lows of relationships, and the beauty and complexity of the erotic, desire and pleasure. I'll guide you through embodiment practices and meditations in special episodes that will bring to life and make real what you learn from conversations with thought leaders, teachers, and guide of all kinds.
My goal is to support you, to experience intimate relationships and the way that you desire, so that you feel nourished by deep, meaningful connection, by passion and pleasure. I'm so glad you're here with me on this journey. And if you are to rate and review this episode, if you feel the same.
Michele Paradise is a trauma informed therapist and a relationship coach. She specializes in supporting people who are in intimate relationships with narcissists. To prepare her for this very important work, she studied and worked with some of the best in the industry, like Dr. Gabor Maté, where she learned about compassionate inquiry.
And Dr. Richard Schwartz and his incredible work in internal family systems. She's also been a personal development coach with a very well known Dr. Deepak Chopra. She's a clinical hypnotherapist and is also a practitioner in havening techniques. She offers powerful one to one therapy and coaching sessions and also runs life changing self healing workshops.
All of it is aimed at helping individuals unlock their potential for a conscious and fulfilling life. Michele, welcome.
Michele: Wow. Thank you for that introduction. Who was that?
Andrea: Absolutely you and just a bit of who you are because I do know you and you are an incredible force of nature, an incredible woman. So I'm so happy to have you here today. Thank you for joining us.
Michele: Right back at you. Okay.
Andrea: I'll take it. I'll take it. I know you have a particular expertise in narcissism. In intimate relationships in particular. So I'm going to ask you the unaskable, which is tell me about sex with a narcissist. What is it like?
Michele: Amazing. Off the scales, wonderful, sensational, probably the best sex you will ever have until it's not.
Andrea: And what happens then?
Michele: Well, I'm sure that many of your listeners, if not all of your listeners have heard the term love bombing. So sex with a narcissist is within the container of love bombing, which is the best part of any narcissistic relationship. And it's at the very beginning. So sex with a narcissistic person will be amazing because they want to please you.
They want to reel you in. And in my experience, it's the best sex I ever had because of that. However, then it becomes transactional because when they have reeled you in and the love bombing can, you know, it's hard to say it's how long is a piece of string, but It has been said that it can last from six days to a month, to a year, and it probably can go beyond that.
But I, I would say that most narcissistic personality style people who is, or what I'm talking about, not NPD, not narcissistic personality disorder, that would also be off the charts with them. But, but I am not qualified to, um, diagnose NPD. So I don't really talk about those cause they're not my clients, um, specifically.
It becomes their currency and then it becomes transactional because there's three stages in within, well, there's actually four stages for most of us within a narcissistic relationship and that is love bombing. It's pretty obvious, reel you in, reflect back to you everything you've always wanted to be.
You are the most amazing person. And you probably didn't get a lot of that growing up. So it's so powerful. The second part is called devaluation. Pretty obvious that word means that they begin to devalue you. That's where gaslighting comes into play. Um, minimization, stonewalling, ghosting, breadcrumbing, all of those lovely terms.
And then the third one is discard, where they actually Get rid of you. Now that doesn't mean that they leave you. They might still keep you on their supply wheel, but they don't need you anymore because you have nothing for them. The fourth stage, which happens to a lot of people, is called hoovering. It's named after the British vacuum cleaner, Hoover, where, um, they come back for you.
And that's a very interesting stage because in my experience, it happened with a few people and one of them was 10 years later. So people think, well, I haven't heard from them for a while, so I'm okay. No, you're never really okay. You always need to be not concerned about it, not worried about it, but know what you're going to do if it happens.
Andrea: Oh, my goodness. So I'm finding this all a bit disturbing. The fact that there's and also heartening in a way that there's a clear pattern because if there's a clear pattern, at least it gives you something to hold on to to follow to track to trace to normalize almost what can feel like it.
a very dissettling situation I imagine to be in. So, um, the love bombing part of it is when sex and it feels really amazing. It's what I heard. And yeah, until it doesn't until it isn't. So can you give me a little bit more information on that transitional phase from sort of love bombing? And then as the breadcrumbing or the ghosting starts to happen, is it inconsistent that that happens?
So you think things are okay and then they're not? How exactly does that play out?
Michele: Yeah, it's a great question. Um, there's not a template for it. There's of, you know, like you said, there's a pattern to it, for sure. But I'll give you a couple examples of what that could look like. So let's say that you're in this amazing relationship, you know, you're telling your friends.
It, this is everything I've always wanted, you know, it almost feels too good to be true, right? I remember saying that one of my friends said, well, it probably is, but anyway, I ignored that completely. So, um, what happens is love bombing is not sustainable because they are using all of their energy to get you on site and it would be in their best interest to do it quicker than slower, you know, so people that take a year, that's, that's, Quite an amazing length of time.
However, they reel you in and then they realize that they can't sustain this because it's really a mask. None of it is real. They're not, they're not a real person, the person you meet. The real person is buried somewhere deep inside, very wounded, very childlike. So they can't sustain it. So the mask begins to slip and it's, you know, it's exactly what you probably think it would be.
It's less. and less and less. And it can become quite mean. It can become quite transactional. It can become things like, um, if you do that, we will have sex. If you don't do that, we won't have sex because there, there can be coercion in there. There can be just a complete cutoff of it. And, um, They appear to go off you completely, but you are so hooked into them.
And this is what happens. Well, I can, I'm good to speak as a woman who is what I am a woman and my experiences with heterosexual men is that this is the relationship you believe you've been waiting for all your life. And they see you and they hear you and they validate you and they say the most amazing things back to you.
So what you start to do is make excuses. For the lack of sex or the tapering offs, things like, well, he's had a really hard day at the office or he's dealing with family issues or he hasn't been well and you just start putting up with it and putting up with it more and more. And. Before you know it, you're not having sex at all.
And what they do is, um, some very clever ones that realize they may be losing you because you're on their supply wheel and they don't want to lose you as a supply. And I'm going to hold up this piece of paper that might illustrate better what I'm saying. That would be the narcissistic type person, and this is the people around them, and you're one of the spokes on the wheel.
And everybody on that supply wheel has an absolute purpose, uh, that they need. That could be sex, uh, supply, service, and safety. Those are the four needs of the narcissist when it comes to others. So what happens is, um, they are, their lovemaking with you diminishes, but you [00:10:00] are in love with the person you met.
Even though that person is gone. So there's a body still there, but that temperament and everything So what they might do if they're very clever is breadcrumb. So they'll throw you a crumb every now and then and This is what narcissists also do when they're dating several people They throw breadcrumbs to them to keep them all on board while they you know, move between the ones with the, the supply that they need at the time.
That's one way it could look. It could be, um, complete lack of sex and they're getting it somewhere else. and you don't know that. Um, you might suspect it, but you don't even want to go there because it's too terrifying because you are so hooked on this person. They're quite addictive in my experience. Um, cause I was raised for just for context, I was raised by a narcissistic father.
Um, I have a narcissistic brother and I married a narcissistic man and divorced him. So they're all different. And obviously I had different kinds of relationships with them. But that pattern is pretty solid. Um, and in my case, and I'm, I'm happy to, you know, talk about my own situation. My, my ex husband was having, um, multiple affairs with multiple women unbeknownst to me, cause I was busy raising two small children and, um, wasn't really looking for those kinds of things.
And, um, the last one was my best friend and I miss that completely. And each relationship ended in the birth of a child. So, uh, he was quite prolific, and, um, he saw nothing wrong with it. In the end, he said, I still love you, I'm not with any of them, and that, that was his justification of it, and that, and I'm not looking for sympathy here, trust me, I'm okay.
But that was meant to make me feel good, that he was still coming back to me, because I had things on the supply wheel that he needed, um, and a lot of that was safety. Because I was raising his children and I was monogamous and that he, they need those different. different things in their life. So there's sex, safety, supply, and service.
Sex is pretty obvious. Supply can be anything like money, social status, um, the promise of inheritance, any, anything that will feed them socially or financially. So there's sex supply. Um, the third one is, um, safety. So they sort of like an anchor or rock that they can come back to that you're not going to go and have affairs with other people, or you're not going to talk about them.
You're not going to give away secrets and things like that. And also you you're raising their children and you're creating a safe environment for them and service in no particular order. Service would be the easiest way I could describe that is you become their personal PA. So you might drive them around, you might do their.
Their accounts, you might run their business, you know, things like that. And as you can see, there will be overlap in some of those things. So, statistically, what we believe to be true is a target. A target is the person that the NARC chooses needs to have at least two of the four. And if they drop beneath two, they will discard them.
And eventually, sorry, devalue them and eventually discard them. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Yeah. It may, unfortunately.
Michele: It’s so unclear. It's awful. I know. It's awful information.
Andrea: Yeah. Well, there's a few things that came up for me because some of those, if you were just to name those four things in a healthy relationship, you would say, yeah, we all want sex.
We all want someone to support us and that, where is the imbalance? Lie. Yeah. So where does it, where is it not actually healthy when? And um, so we know what the narcissist is getting. I would also love to hear what is the hook, the person who's been hooked, receiving, or feel like they're getting out of it.
And how does that addictive cycle play out.
Michele: Okay, so the first word I would use to answer your question is intention. All right, intention is everything, but I'll unpack that a little bit. I'll come from the last part of the question. Imagine two people growing up in a family. Right. And they are. They are not receiving the attunement from the parent figures.
So I say parent figures because they're not always parents. Um, Attunement would look like the child being seen, heard, and valued, validated, accepted just the way they are. They appear. So the child, and I'm not blaming parents, by the way. Okay. I'm a parent myself, you know, and I, I know that attunement wasn't always a hundred percent because what happens is parents come into our lives very often with their own unprocessed trauma, not even aware of it.
Right. So let's, I'm just, if we could just put that on the timeline. Um, so I don't blame parents. What happens is, let's say you have two people, and they grow up in very similar families, and this person, uh, in the first, well, the first three years of their lives is usually when, uh, the small t trauma is downloaded.
It's because we're, we're non verbal, and we, and our brain isn't fully formed, we're about 25, so we have a lot of real estate before we can get to processing this information of, of life. So anyway, the first three years of our life is, according to Kolk, who I really admire and believe, that's the first three years laid down.
The first seven years is when we develop our personality. And most of personality is not genetic, it is epigenetic. So it's a response to our environment. And what happens is, let's say a child is born, or two children born into two families where there's lack of attunement. They're not getting their needs met.
So they're going to, I think it's amazing what kids are able to do unconsciously, they, they unconsciously adapt their personality to get their needs met. So this person goes out into the world, and for whatever reasons, because we don't have enough time to go into all of that, but they decide to adapt their personality.
Um, so they can't fight. They can't flee. They freeze and they fawn. So fawning being people pleasing. So they go out and they're, if I'm, they figure out if I'm nice to everybody, they're going to like me more. And the more people like me, the better I feel about myself. Right? So the validation is coming from there.
Okay. So they go, let's say people pleasing, empath, all of that. This person. didn't get their needs met and Because of the environment that they grew up in they they have more narcissistic traits So they go out and they take so that just for the simplicity of explaining this the people pleasers Give and the narcissistic people take so they go on with their lives and everything's great And then they meet And it's the perfect trauma bond because this one's giving all the time and this one's taking all the time.
And they then form this trauma bond which is perfect for the people pleaser because they get to fix somebody. and make the situation better. And that gives them a lot of validation. So they feel good about themselves and they see nothing wrong with that relationship because they're getting their needs met.
Now, I just want to do a little sidebar here, and this may distress some people, it's happened before. People pleasing is also manipulative. As, as narcissism is also manipulative. Now I'm not blaming either of them for, um, what they're doing, but all I'm saying is if you actually look at the core of what they're doing, they're both manipulating the people around them to meet their needs.
you know, that they didn't get met as a child. So what happens is they're a child. They don't get their needs met, but this, this body grows around them. They get jobs, they buy houses, they get married, but they're still running that childlike behavior. So here they are, they meet, and you know, you may look at them, You, whoever you are and go, that doesn't look like a healthy relationship.
I don't know how you can be in a relationship with that person. They seem to take advantage of you and all that. However, that person has normalized that behavior because of the way they were raised. And that was me. I normalized the behavior of narcissistic personality style because I didn't know that's what it was.
All I saw was, as you know, I know, you know, Andra, that the first romantic relationship we witnessed. is our parents. Even if they're divorced or separated or arguing or never married, we are experiencing that. And that becomes, we normalize that. That becomes familiar. The word familial is in there. And we then create this template.
We go out into the world. So what did I do? I was this person and I attracted this person all the time. And that fed my soul. I thought, you know, I really believed I didn't know any of this was going on. So When my friends would say to me, how do you put up with that guy? And I was like, what guy? Because that was my father, you know, um, and I, I'm actually working on a book called I married my father because I did, we were leaving the, we were leaving the [00:20:00] service and my brother who's taller than me leaned over and said, you know, you married your father.
And I said, why didn't you tell me that a half hour ago? , now I'm making light of it now, but at the time it was very jarring because I did. So I, I hope that explains how we get into these situations and how we stay into the, in these situations because we are in love with that person We met. They're long gone, but what we do is we're waiting for them to come back because it was such a heady experience.
It was everything that we ever wanted in one person and we then believe that, because a lot, what a lot of us are doing in my case is wanting to repair the relationship with father. But with somebody else, we want to, we want to run the film out to a happy ending because we didn't get that happy ending so you stay way too long.
And to be fair, and I wish I had come up with this comment, but I can borrow it. Um, toxic narcissistic relationships are pretty much only seen in the rearview mirror. Not in the windscreen, so you don't know until it's over, and sometimes you don't even want to know when it's over that that's what you were in.
Andrea: Yeah, I can imagine it can be really hard to accept that that's what, what it was, and that's what that person is, or their, their character had developed into that. And it's heartbreaking, a bit, and I'm also their therapeutic coach so I know. All of the things which are that we do look to repair relationship that never were really complete with our parents through our lovers, through our partners, romantic partners, particularly people that we're intimate with.
That hoping that that will be the healing that that happens that will get that love in that way that we never received. So my logical mind, my therapeutic coach mind knows, and then it's always a bit painful to kind of, you know, C that someone does need to, I don't know if need is the right word, but maybe their path is to live through the experience of that, to learn about what it is that they actually do deserve and who they actually are and how to be, um, um, independent and also in a relationship that is healthy.
So being individual, but also being relational. So it's the, all of those beautiful lessons that we know about and that you learn. And it's still really difficult to accept that that's what's happened. And that's what is, and to understand it, especially when you're in the middle of it. I think that's really so tough.
Um, and part of you, I would say part of most of us, we don't really wanna know . We just hope it's gonna get better or that isn't actually happening that way or that person isn't actually that person that somehow they're gonna snap out of it and come back. It's really absolutely that that's the case, that they are this way.
And like you say, because it happens that personality forms when they're really tiny. That was my curiosity. So I am more on the people pleasing, empath, service oriented, that was my adaptation to my childhood. So I'm always more curious because it's more of a leap for me to understand the, what a little kid might have done to adapt.
So if they were taking, what would that have looked like as a little kid? Would it have Narcissism? Yeah. So if there's the free, if there's the, the free spawn, or people pleaser, what are the, what are the trauma responses really? Or what are, what are those survival mechanisms that are happening in a little kid who goes the narcissistic route, let's say, of Um, uh, adaptation and survival, really getting the needs met when they're little.
Michele: Well, it's, as I understand it, it's a great question. It's slightly different. So imagine a spectrum and on that one end of the spectrum, you have, um, uh, needs not met at all, no attunement or very, very little attunement to the child. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got golden child syndrome. Okay, so I'll, I'll quickly explain what, what the child goes through.
So they, there's all the colors in between. So the child is born into a family that may have mental health issues, physical health issues, socioeconomic issues, you name it. Uh, there may be addictions, all kinds of things. So I always like to think the parents are doing the best they can with the knowledge and the information they have.
at that time. And it might not be good knowledge or information. They might be really struggling. Okay. So, well, I'll get back to that in a minute. So that child is And, and this can start in utero, by the way, it, this doesn't just happen when a child is born, certainly the third trimester where they're absorbing everything.
So let's say, um, um, cause I've, I've had this as well. Um, let's say a person has been raped and they decided to keep the child, but they have this very strange relationship with his fetus, you know, because they're not sure, whatever. I don't want to anchor those things. So let's say, um, uh, a woman gets pregnant and their partner.
with doesn't want a child or isn't ready for a child. I've also had clients where, um, not clear. Yeah. Clients that had parents that they wanted only boys and they got all girls. And they made it very clear to those children that they weren't wanted. Um, there's that oops child, you know, that they had during menopause or.
perimenopause or whatever. And they didn't intend to have any, there's so many different variations on this, but the message comes down to the child that you're not really wanted. And even if there isn't a, a direct link to it, that's what the parent figures are giving off. So this goes back to attachment styles and, um, I, it's not a, Absolute given, but Dr.
Romany, who a lot of people know in the, in the world of narcissism, she says that most narcissistic type people have, um, anxious, ambivalent attachment style, the push pull, because they, and that to me makes a lot of sense. Um, and they will attract avoidance. They will also attract, um, anxious, ambivalent.
They don't attract secure so much because the person is secure, and they wouldn't tolerate that behavior. They would need, need other aspects of personality for that relationship. Anyway, I digress. So you've got on this end the person that um, wasn't seen, wasn't heard, wasn't valued. And then they might grow up and get more of that, like bullying at school.
No one takes care of them. No one listens to them. They come home. They might even be sexually abused. And they, they come to the parents and the parents go, I don't believe you, or I'm not going to say, because that's going to blow up. Our friendship group or, or whatever. So that's at one end on the other end, there is the golden child syndrome.
So this child, I'm sure you can work that out. Um, metaphorically, sometimes literally their feet don't touch the ground. Everything is done for them. They are the most sensational, wonderful human being on the earth. They are my golden child. And if there's. two or more children, probably one of those will be scapegoat child, because that's the sort of balance of that.
Anyway, so this child is at the other end of the spectrum. However, the running theme with both of them and all in between is that in the first three years of our lives, we're meant to start, you know, Separating and individuating from mother or from parents, you know, becoming more independent because we're quite narcissistic when we're children that that young because we can't do a lot for ourselves, especially the first year of our life.
However, these kids get stuck. They get stuck between those two worlds because they're not getting enough foundation in their lack of attunement to individuate and separate and feel like they can go out and come back and there will be a safe place for them to come back to because it's not safe to begin with.
And this other end of the spectrum is, well, I go out into the world. And they're not like my, the people that I have raised me are like, right? They're not giving me all this stuff. They don't think I'm the most amazing person in the world. So they're having a very different experience. So they don't individuate and separate either.
And as I said earlier, the body, the hair, the development all happens. But there's still that that wounded child inside and I'm so sorry. I can't remember exactly what the question. Oh, how did how do they get? How do they develop this personality?
Andrea: Yeah, what is the narcissistic child? What are the behaviors of that child?
And I'm hearing more that it's That a parent will, will treat them as the golden child. Nothing's wrong. Give them all the power, no boundaries, for example. Just do whatever, nothing, couldn't do anything. Nothing's wrong, ever. So it's this false sense of perfection, power, deservingness, maybe?
Michele: There's a, there's a twist.
Um, I think I can say this with confidence. A lot of those kinds of parents are narcissistic themselves and their child's achievements are transactional to the love they get. So golden child will frequently be really [00:30:00] good at school or good in sport. And the parent lives through that. That is their boast.
They can go out and tell all their friends and family how wonderful their child is. And this, this all gets reflected back. But if you change, if the child changes, that changes too. They aren't so nice to you. They don't fawn all over you. Um, so the fawning actually comes the other way. Whereas people pleasers, the fawning goes that way.
So that's why the nark gets invested in taking. I need to take, I need everything to be incoming fawn all over me. I'm not going to fawn all over you. And they get emotionally stunted. They don't emotionally evolve. It's very sad. I mean, I do a lot of, um, stuff on Instagram and I know people, well, I see other, I see other people and it's okay, whatever people choose to do, but there's a lot of narcissistic bashing out there.
And I don't subscribe to that. And I know You know, I get flack about that from time to time because they're like, these are hideous, awful people, but we must remember. That's not, they weren't born this way. This is woundedness. This doesn't mean that you have even forgiveness for them. But I, I would, I like to develop when I work with my clients and for myself, I like to develop a level of understanding and compassion at a distance, at a far, far distance.
Okay. But that helps me to heal because a lot of people go, what did I do wrong? If you're a people pleaser empath in a narcissistic relationship and you're the target, Oh my God, you'll be like, what did I do? What did I say? You'll be second guessing everything. You'll be trying harder and harder and harder.
That's exhausting. And it, it, we abandon ourselves more and more every time we do that. So really the goal is to understand that. This is not something in their control. And then this is what people sometimes argue with me. Well, their mother was a narcissist. Their grandmother was a narcissist. Surely it's narciss it's genetic.
No, no, no. It's, it's, uh, legacy generational trauma handed down and that's where the epigenetics come in. So they. You know, they present as, um, this long lineage of narcissists, but look, if you look for the gene and there are people out there saying there is a gene, but I see no proof. There's one doctor working on it and I will redact everything I'm saying.
If they can find the gene, but so far we don't have that information. And that is also helps to explain if you look at it from the other side, how a child, I have a family right now, four children, both parents are narcissists and one child is narcissistic and the rest aren't. So, it's not really genetic, is it?
If you have two narcissist parents, it's sort of a given, if you look at genetic markers, that all the children would be. But only one has copied the behavior and, um, we, we also know that children model the same sex parent first. So the mother is very narcissistic and their four daughters, yada, yada, yada, how that goes.
Um. Does that explain it a bit better?
Andrea: Yeah, that's very helpful. So what I'm hearing is that the child, well, one, one thing that I'm hearing is that the child will have internalized the behavior of the narcissistic parent and learned how to be from that, the behavior of that parent who's modeled. That particular behavior and that there's a gain there.
There's something that would have been gained by modeling that behavior. So in this case, the narcissist is, if it's the golden child, has received all of this fawning, has received all this attention, and has received all of this, um, aggrandizement or compliments from a person will know that that's what can be used to To also draw someone in to have them feel loved because that's when they maybe also felt loved.
It's a false kind of perception of love. It was based on, likely based on behavior, like you're saying, and externality of some sort. So it's, it's very, um, it's very sticky. It feels very sticky. And it's Um, it has, it has helped me to understand how that dynamic plays out between the, the empath, the person ready to give, ready to fix.
This is how I'll get love. And that person who is ready to receive it because that was how they understood or got a hit when they were little, of love, even though it was an empty kind of love. And that's maybe where that shell. I guess what I would love for you to speak into more is I also feel once you understand the dynamics happening, it's not a, it's, it's not a, it, it sounds like a great position to be in as a narcissist because in our society and culture, it can be a power position.
Um, uh, position of one up, let's say, but if you're in that power position, then you're still not connecting with people because you need to be here to connect, not one up or one down. It's, it's truly real sad. It's not in this grandiose position, not in a shame based, Oh, you've got to be here to connect really.
And the narcissists are sitting up here somewhere. So how do we bring them, is it possible to bring them down so that they can connect? Because it feels really. Um, sad actually to say, there's no way, there's no hope, let's, you know, give up on them completely. And I'm wondering, because you mentioned this, I could be, I could be mixing stuff up.
So help me untangle it right now. There was, um, there's narcissistic personality disorder, which is diagnosable. And then there's narcissistic personality as in a characteristic or set set of maybe behaviors, actions. Yeah. That isn't falling into the category of disorder, but it feels like a lighter version. So, it feels like a…
Michele: It’s narcissism light. That's good. I call it narcissistic personality style. And I've since I, you know, maybe it was stored away in my, I heard it somewhere, but then I said it out loud and I was talking to this doctor and he said, Oh, that's in keeping with the work of, and he mentioned this This woman who I, who name escapes me at the moment.
So it's not new, but I do think it's kinder. Um, cause people use like narc and you know, he's a narc, she's a narc. In America, we, you know how we like to conflate things and make them easier. We say narcopath. We don't say narcissist, psychopath or sociopath. We say narcopath. So people like to do that. Um, I don't like labels.
I think we live more to labels, but to answer your question, this is the big question. Now, this is my opinion and only my opinion. However, it is based on research that I've, not that I've done on my own, but what others have done. Um, if it is epigenetic, that means we weren't born with it. There's not the gene.
So we have learned the behavior, which is very exciting in my world. Because what you learn you can unlearn and you have this beautiful part of the brain aspect of the brain ability of the brain called neuroplasticity and we know again I talk about real estate. We're not using a lot of the real estate of the brain.
Maybe. Five to 10 percent if that much. So there's a lot of other real estate that we can develop, which has been proved, um, won't go into all that now, but that has been proved how people, for example, have a stroke and they, they, um, build a speech center in another part of the brain and learn how to speak again, but it's not where.
The speech center is meant to be, right? So that's very exciting. So absolutely, you can learn how to navigate your life differently with different strategies and, um, connections, making connections to people. However, there's a couple sidebars here. Um, first of all, you've got to want to, that's the big one.
The big one is. I think I need some help. Um, even though I can't see it, but people keep telling me or whatever, however, the information is coming in, but I think I need some help. So I'm going to go and speak to somebody, but they don't actually believe because belief is so important in any work with the mind, in my opinion.
So they have to believe that there is something that They want to address, which is the big issue to get a person that is narcissistic to that point. And there's another little bit in there, which I've learned, which is quite interesting. Um, a therapist, counselor, coach who has no experience in narcissism can get easily pumped.
by a narcissist and love bomb by a narcissist. So what the narcissist will do is we'll go to a mental health professional with the intention of becoming a better narcissist, not to get better. And a lot of therapists get punked by that because they're getting love bombed by that person, especially if it's an opposite sex and they're heterosexual, [00:40:00] there's all that.
And they help the narcissist. Become a better narcissist without meaning to and I, you, I don't know if you'd be surprised how many people that I, I work with when there's more than one in the equation are like, I know that he or she is, um, schmoozing you or trying to get you on side. And I'm really worried that you're going to get on side with them.
You know, they're always worried that I'm going to take the side of the narcissistic person or whatever. Cause I don't always know. All of that at that if I just had it today, and I'm like, please understand that I am fully aware of what. The behavior looks like and I'm also fully aware and want you to be fully aware that I take no sides.
There are no sides here. There's no judgment. There's nothing. I could easily not like narcissistic people because of my experience, but actually I've gone quite the reverse. I used to be very angry with the narcissist in my life. Um, and you're right. Something I want to go back to. It's my lesson. I don't know if you believe in other lives and you don't have to answer that question, but I do.
And I think this particular life is all about needing to learn that lesson. And if I don't, I'm going to get poked and poked and poked and not going into detail. I've had it in so many areas of my life in this life. I've had it in business. I've had it in investments and it's like, Michele, do you have this message yet?
Stop being so naive about these people. They, you know, and you, it's a fine balance. You want to straddle. You don't want to condemn everybody you meet. Like, I think they're a narcissist or I think they're out to get me. But at the same time, you do have to keep your eyes wide open when you go into it. And the more you understand this stuff and the more hopefully, um, people like myself put these messages out for free on social media.
And I, I'm now getting DM saying, Thank you for opening my eyes. I had no idea. This is what my goal is. I'm, you know, I have a private practice. I'm very happy with it, but I, but I feel that there are so many people out there that can't afford a bean to work with somebody. They can't even afford a book sometimes because maybe they're living in course of control and every bit of money they have is being controlled by the other person, male or female.
So I w I really want to offer as much for free so that At least, because I have, I have a program that I created called the Paradise Process and it's four pillars of healing and the first one is awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. And for me that is the heaviest part of any healing. That is the front end you've got, which you can't see, which you, which you don't acknowledge, you can't heal.
You know, you've got to be able to acknowledge these things. And so the first one is awareness. And that is the majority of the healing process to me. The second is acceptance and sometimes that needs to be radical acceptance of self more than often. Uh, it's okay, I did that and that's where I am now and I can change.
I really can change. This is only where I am in this moment and I'll tell you something I absolutely hate and I rarely use this word hate, but I hate hindsight. I I People say, Oh, hindsight is 2020. It's not. I've never seen it to be anything but harsh. really harsh. We look back at ourselves and we go, you could have, would have, should have done that.
You stupid girl. Why did you do that? Well, because that's all she knew at the time. It's luxurious to sit here five or 10 years later and look back at yourself and know all these things that you know now, but it's awful. So acceptance is radical. It is, I might not understand it. I might be wanting to beat myself up, but I'm just going to sit it.
in the acceptance of where I am, knowing that I can change. And the third one, when you have awareness and acceptance, you have consciousness. Maybe 5 percent of our day is spent in consciousness and the rest of it isn't. And with, when you have consciousness, you have choice. So the final part is choice.
And that can happen in a nanosecond, or that can take months or years. But if you don't get the message, I don't know the quote by heart, but A. H. Almas, who is the mentor of Gabor Mate, and he says, it's something like this, you know, all of these things have been sent for us and only us. These are for, this is our work.
And if we don't do it, it will poke you and poke you and poke you. And sometimes when you really don't pay attention, it can begin to take you out. And that can make you sick, literally make you physically sick because you're not paying attention. And you're not understanding the message. So I have accepted, radical acceptance, that this is my workshop in this life.
And the beauty of it, because I always like to find a silver lining in everything that I can, is that I can hopefully help some other people do things a bit differently with some awareness, acceptance, consciousness, and choice.
Andrea: I have no doubt that that is what is happening because I have what's been in your presence which is powerful and then the work that you do for the generosity through social media and sharing is, um, is phenomenal. It really is.
Michele: Thank you.
Andrea: It’s strong. It's clear.
Michele: I blush.
Andrea: Yeah, it is. It comes from a deep sense of knowing and having lived it and. That's the most powerful. Unfortunately, sometimes I think the most powerful feature is teachings come from what comes from within because you've done that journey yourself. And as much as we do not wish that journey on anyone else, we know that others are experiencing what they came here to learn too.
And so that is to have guides. I have guides, people who are Years before me have stepped years before me that I look to we all have those people and there are all the people who are coming up behind us that we can share where we're at here. Now, what we understand that we have come to is from right where we stand now.
So it's, um, awareness is certainly the first step because what we can't see, we have difficulty working with. And for, um, people in narcissistic relationships, I would say that kind of blindness is, comes both ways. So it's from the person who is in the position of, let's say the person who's been hooked As much as the narcissist because as golden child, as the perfect one, they aren't wrong in their eyes.
They're doing nothing wrong. It's the people around them that have the problems.
Michele: Absolutely.
Andrea: It's normal for them. It's understood. It doesn't mean it's right. It's understandable. Same thing for the fixers…
Michele: Absolutely.
Andrea: …wanting to fix. That's how they learned to be in the world, better or for worse, because sometimes those, their gifts, it's a gift sometimes to be so self assured, it's a gift sometimes to help and be giving.
So it's also understanding when we go into shadow on each of those and Um, that is from that, that building of awareness. And I know that you have something to give to our audience to help them build that awareness.
Michele: I forgot, and it's just the perfect timing because it's called a 30 day awareness journal and I'd like to give it to anyone listening and to anyone else that you know, um, if they're not listening, share it with them.
Um, it's, um, 30 day awareness journal, and it's a really great tool to, um, Really look at those dark recesses of, of your life, uh, things that maybe you don't want to look at that aren't very comfortable. But we do know, um, I think a lot of us working in this sector know that you need to sit with some of these things and not run away from them.
And that's what we've been doing. Doing a lot of well, that's what I did distractions. They're everywhere. You know, it's I always use the metaphor of the door So you're in a room right now Andrea and there's a door I can see it and if there was a knock on the door, this isn't a test because I think, I always know what people are going to say, but if you open that door and there's a small little girl who's very upset, what would you do?
Andrea: Oh, I would crouch down so that I could connect with her at her, where she's at and see what she needs. She may want to hug. She may just want to come in and sit in the chair to see what she needs and take care.
Michele: Yeah. So, you wouldn't slam the door in her face.
Andrea: Nah.
Michele: You wouldn't shout at her and slam the door in her face.
Well, I'm afraid to say that's what a lot of us do to ourselves. We don't open the door and let that part of ourselves in and sit with that part and find out what it needs. I mean, I couldn't have said it more beautifully than you said it. Let it sit in a chair, get to know it, let it come to you, let it feel comfortable.
What we do is we go, not you again, not, you're not doing that again. And you haven't attracted another loser in your life again, or you, you haven't. Got a friend that stopped talking to you, whatever, whatever the thing is. So we beat ourselves up. We absolutely beat, we beat that little girl, that little [00:50:00] boy up.
And what happens when you ignore and harm and chuck away, you know, go away? What happens to that, that child? Do they get better?
Andrea: No, I don't think so.
Michele: No, they get worse because they feel even more rejected. And our biggest fear, any human on this earth is. Rejection and abandonment. So here we go. We're rejecting that part of ourselves again and nothing good comes of that So we have to let it in.
That's the only way this works. I mean, I I you probably agree I think therapy right now is For me, at the most exciting time it's ever, ever been. There's no blame, certainly not in the work I'm trained to do. There's no blame. We want to remove the shame. We also want to be very inclusive of the parts of self and acknowledge that there are parts.
And the thing that I really love is, I think old school, and I'm not going back to any specific time, but I think it used to be that the therapist had all the answers. I And the, the client had all the questions, but now it's completely different. The therapist has all the questions and you have all the answers.
They're already inside of you. You have all the resources that you need. And I always have the Russian dolls on my desk, you know, and I say, you know, What we do together is we, we're removing the layers, getting back to that little authentic self. Mine seem to have issues at the moment, so they won't come apart, so I can't do a nice little demo for you, but I think you'd get One of the layers is stuck.
We have to work on that a bit harder. But that's the metaphor that I use because I There's 168 hours in a week. If you see a therapist for one hour, you've got 167 hours to do the work. And a lot of The way it used to be is you came for an hour, you sort of vented and opened up and then you went back to your life.
Not my clients. It's very interactive and they have heart work. I call it heart work, not homework. And you know, they don't have to do it, but the more you do, the better the result you will get. Cause it's, your life. And Gabor always said to us, you want to be fired as quickly as possible. And that used to like, if you, if you think of that as an income stream, that can be terrifying, but actually it works so beautifully because you just get more.
It's so abundant. You get more and more and more and people don't become dependent on you. Who wants to be dependent? It's to develop a person that's going to become codependent on you when they're probably codependent already. We don't, we don't want to activate that wound anymore, we want to help them to deactivate that wound.
So, um, yeah, it's a very exciting time. And this, this self awareness journal, this awareness journal. is something that you can do in your own time and your own pace. I'm not involved. My involvement is finished. I created it and you it just helps you. You don't have to do it in 30 days. We just said 30 days because some people like doing things.
You know, they like to have that pattern, but you can do it whenever you want and just take your time. It is not a competition and just allow yourself the awareness and the radical acceptance of this is who you were. This is who you are. This is who you want to become. All of that is possible. I'm unrecognizable to who I was even a year ago.
And I think we all are. If we really. allow ourselves to go there. And people change all the time. And I say to clients in relationships, the longer you're with somebody, the more you need to communicate because we fall into this. Oh, they know me. They know what I like. Well, I change, I mean, one day I might like mushrooms and next week I might not like mushrooms or whatever.
So it's really, communication is everything, absolutely everything, especially the communication with ourselves. And that is the parts that are within us that we need to open the door, invite them in, let them sit down, create safety. And you know what? They'll tell you everything you need to know.
Andrea: Yes, they will. With time and compassion and kindness.
Michele: And, they’re beautiful. They're joyful parts of us.
Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it's difficult to access those parts. So that's when, if you are struggling, if someone is listening and they're struggling to kind of know or recognize, then that's when it is a good time to get some support.
Michele: Absolutely. I totally agree.
Andrea: It feels bright. So there's the power, of course, of working with therapists and coaches like we are. And then there's also immense power in community and learning in groups, especially group people who have gone through this before. And sometimes those groups can be a bit more accessible if it's tough to, um, To get to therapy for whatever reason one to one and then there's all the again the information I'll share all of the ways to connect with you in the show notes because…
Michele: Oh, thank you.
Andrea: Yeah, what you should.
Michele: I do my best to offer any level of entry so there's free there's very inexpensive there's you know, little courses master classes you can tap into lots of different things.
Um, it's the goal is not a one to one with me. I I would like you to gain a lot more information. Um, Easily less expensively, you know, I think that takes a lot of pressure away from people because it seems some people think it's either or I work with somebody I have the money to work with somebody or I don't have the money to work with somebody but there's so much in between that that we can access now and I'm sure You do a similar thing. So yeah.
Andrea: I'm going to say my own personal journey has been all of it. So it's been one of community and group work. It's been me doing stuff on my own, stuff that interests me, getting support with a coach or a therapist, all different kinds of therapists. I know you're trained in hypnotherapy as well.
Sometimes it's hypnotherapy, body man coaching, and sometimes it's just listening or reading and journaling. It's all of it is really important. We get wounded in relationship. We heal in relationship. That relationship can be one to one. It can be with the wider society and culture. So it's important to get all of that, those different ways of coming at something.
I, I have found anyway. Um, and, and encourage my, the people that I work with, or the people even that just listen to do, is all the ways that support feels like really healthy, good support, yes to all of it, because we need all of it, really.
Michele: I don't know how time sensitive this is, um, but I am doing, I've just realized, I'm doing a in person workshop, which are my favorite, and they're, I actually have ten, Complimentary tickets to give away it is on the 12th of November in London.
So if anybody would like to come, we can also put that link in and the code to get a free ticket. If this goes out after that, I'm sorry. Um, but, um, there will be more.
Andrea: Okay. Amazing. I'm not sure yet. But, um, when this is going out, we're scheduling this week. So we'll see. But if we can get it in, we will.
Michele: Thank you. I'd love to see your people there.
Andrea: And last question. I know you spoke about, um, or not it in past lives or the, your learning journey in this life, which is, which is this path.
Michele: Yeah.
Andrea: For people who have been working on breaking the pattern of being in narcissistic relationship, whether that's dating or relationships that seem to be on repeat , they may feel like they've developed the awareness and they're moving through all the things and they're sitting with their, and yet the pattern persists.
So the question isn't how long is a piece of string? The question may be I guess, do you have any words of reassurance for those people?
Michele: Yeah. Um, you're looking at somebody who's on their healing journey right now. I, when I say on their healing journey, is, I do believe it's a lifetime. And some people might go, oh, a lifetime?
That sounds awful. A lifetime doesn't mean that you're on the same part of that journey all the time. You, what you're doing, as a person, Again, through Compassion Inquiry and Gabor Mate, he said, what you want to do with your client is build resilience, awareness, resilience, right? Life will not stop throwing things at you.
I'm sorry. Just because you think you now can identify a narcissist at 10 paces, doesn't mean they're not going to wiggle their way back in somehow. Um, they, they show up in the most unexpected ways. Okay. So you need to be ready for that. So. What does that look like? What does that feel like? Um, healing, in my opinion, is building resilience and shortening the amount of time of recovery.
So let's say I was in a narcissistic relationship for three months and I got my heart broken and I might ruminate on that for a year. Really, because I'm also an HSP, a highly sensitive person, so that's a whole other dimension with a narcissist. Um, so let's say it takes me three times as long to get over it.
Now, when I have the awareness, the acceptance, the consciousness, and the choice, because now I've got more information, I will probably get over that much more quickly. That could be days, that could be hours, and you know, Gabor used to give us examples of that, like how he used to ruminate over things for years, and now he, he said, you should have seen me a year ago.
He now gets upset about something, he goes to [01:00:00] sleep, he wakes up the next day and one of his family members say something about last night, and he's like, Oh, that I remember, I, I forgot, right? That's post traumatic growth, right? Is that you shorten it. How do we shorten that? It is awareness. It is awareness and it is opening the door when you get the knock, when you've done something that, uh, or you're close to doing something and it doesn't feel right and there's a part of you that's very activated.
You pause. Pause is the magic in healing. Absolutely the magic. You pause, whatever that means to you. It can be a breath. It could be several breaths. It could be literally just stopping, closing your eyes and going, I'm having that feeling again. This time I'm going to hold a space for it. I'm going to let it in.
I'm going to stop what I'm doing for a minute, five minutes. And I'm just going to sit with it and find out what it needs or what its purpose is. And you just get a bit quiet. And you hold a space for that and it will say some things like you're doing too much today. You're going into a space where you get a, uh, a bad feeling.
So don't go into that space. You have a choice not to go into that space. If you're going to go into that space, let's prepare you differently. for getting a different outcome, right? So maybe some boundary setting, some internal boundary setting, something won't get too complicated here, but it really is all about coming back into self because what you've done, whether you're a people pleaser or a narcissist, you have abandoned yourself Most of your life, because I'm a people pleaser.
I've gone outside to get my validation, so I've abandoned myself, right? The narcissist goes outside of themselves to feel good and bring everything back in, but they've still abandoned themselves because we are not connected to self and that's What healing looks like. It's about continuing to connect with self and some people say, what is self?
Well, self isn't a thing. It is, it is acknowledging your needs. First. And that's really hard, especially for people pleasers, to put themselves first. It's like, no, but you're not even putting yourself first. You're just checking in with yourself because the two types of people I've spoken about today and many other archetypes were not raised to have opinions, to have boundaries.
There's a lot of enmeshment in their families. So they need to learn all that stuff. They need to learn what is okay for me and what isn't okay for me. And to find their voice to say that, even if they don't find the voice, they need to tell themselves, that's not okay. That is okay. That's what self healing looks like.
And that's what I said, you've got 167 hours outside of the hour that you have with a therapist to do that work. And that's where the magic really happens. And you won't notice it. You won't notice it. You won't notice it. You won't notice it. And then one day you'll notice it. It'll drop. If you're working with a mental health professional, they will notice it.
And that's what I do a lot with my clients is I become their cheerleader and acknowledge. You know, like you did that. That's amazing. And they're like, that was nothing. That was just a little, I said, no, no, that's huge. Let's acknowledge that because we dismiss so much of the good stuff that we do, because we're focused on, I wouldn't say the bad stuff, but we're focusing on protecting ourselves and guarding ourselves from the bad stuff that we don't acknowledge all the wonderful things that we have done and that are coming to us.
Andrea: I love that. Okay. Wow. We have spoken to so many different things today. And I know you have, we could have spoken to so many more because I know you're well, say it again. I know your work and it goes deep. And so absolutely recommend that people find you, check you out, check the work out, do the small first step.
And know that those steps are adding up, that they do accumulate over time. It's a cumulative experience. And that as we build that resilience and our recovery time from a hit from life, it gets smaller and smaller and shorter and shorter. Then life feels just a bit lighter. It's not going to be that it's not challenging.
Things do lighten up, um, and feel a little bit easier and more, more manageable until one day all of a sudden we See a big change, but it's all things that really add up to what that becomes that wow, okay, right now I'm with someone who's actually really healthy.
Michele: Thank you, but that's right if I may that's exactly what it looks like for so many people I look I tend to attract millennial women so I can speak to this With confidence and they'll get in touch with they go.
I've just met the most amazing human And they're so surprised and that's when you know, and that's when they know this critical mass of work that they've done is now coming to fruition because they've been like swimming this way and meeting these toxic people and they've done the work and they've emotionally evolved and now those people are still there and they might come and like nibble and want to have a go.
So these people don't see them anymore because they're. their energetic level, their healing has changed, and they don't need that. So they're going to meet a different level of people. And this is how it works. This is how it's worked for me. This is how it works for my clients. And they just, they're like, one day they say, Oh, this just happened.
And it was unexpected. No, it isn't even working towards this. It's just been like now muscle memory. It's so unconscious that you're not. Aware of it. It's like a bell curve and we don't always see that. So you're working, working, working, you're doing it, you're doing it, and then you reach this critical mass and you're like, wow, I don't even think about it anymore.
I'm just doing it. And we need to be reminded of that, that you are doing it and well done. Congratulations. We need more cheerleaders. We really need more cheerleaders.
Andrea: Absolutely. Well, people, we have anyone listening, we are here to cheer you on because…
Michele: Absolutely. Pom poms.
Andrea: Oh my goodness. And we're still, we're still here on the planet.
So that means we're still in it. It is a lifelong. I always say this because people just want to know where's the end. And I was like, where's the end? And I'm still like this sometimes. Where's the end of this mountain? Because I've had it. I'm done with this challenge. And it's like, okay, well, maybe it's okay that it's continuing and this is part of the beauty of life. You have to have gotten to a certain point in your journey to be able to say that and mean it. And then remember it when you're in the middle of it again. So I, and I feel like we are here cheering you on.
Absolutely. And in a practical, tactical way, also step by step. Michele, please share how they can connect with you. I know you've got, we talked about Insta. How can, what's your handle? And we'll put everything in the show notes as well. So.
Michele: Okay. If you're specifically interested in, um, Uh, narcissism and all, all the stuff around that.
Um, I do a lot of that on, um, YouTube and Instagram. My handle is Michele Paradise Official. However, my mother chose a different spelling of Michele, so it's M-I-C-H-E-L-E. Paradise, the way it sounds official. My, um, YouTube where, so I do short form on Instagram and long form on YouTube, which is Mich Para, two halves of my name, M I C H P A R A.
But if you type my name in, I'm sure you'll find it. I'm on LinkedIn as Michele Paradise. I'm, uh, that's about it really. I don't, oh, I have a Facebook business page. Yes, Michele Paradise, you can find me on Facebook, but I tend to put similar things on all the platforms. The big, the big ones are Insta and YouTube because Insta is Reels and YouTube is Long Forms.
So whatever I'm talking about on Insta, I usually turn into a long form video and I go deeper, 15-20 minutes of that. I do workshops around London. My website is findingparadise.me
I thought I would have some fun with my name, finally. Never used it before. Um, and my email address is michele@findingparadise.me
Um, and my website if you want to get in touch with me. So what I do is I offer any prospective client a free 15 minute Zoom exploration call without obligation. Because I think when you're taking on this kind of work, you really need to shop around as the client and you have enough pressure. I don't put pressure on you.
So if you find out afterwards, we're not a good fit. We're not a good fit. And I. Bless you on your way. Um, I think that's, I think I've covered everything, haven't I? I can't think of anything else.
Andrea: Yeah, sounds good to me. Yeah, that's, those are the places I know you in spaces, and again, we'll put everything in the show notes so people can access that easily.
Um, and the 30 day, um
Michele: Yeah, we'll give you a link to that, a special link, and on, I'm just remembering on my Insta, there's a bio, a link tree, and if you click on that, you'll see all my courses and, uh, master classes and stuff like that. Sounds good. If you're interested. And we're just about to do a whole new series of things on narcissism.
So, um, watch this space. They will be coming. And I [01:10:00] also put up my workshops, so if anybody's in London, what we're going to do next year is we're going to live stream every workshop, so it doesn't matter where you are in the world. And they're very affordable, very affordable, because that's the goal, to make them as affordable as possible.
Andrea: Excellent. Okay, we have no excuses then to get on for this. None at all. Thank you so much for coming today and sharing your wisdom. It's always a joy to connect.
Michele: Thank you. I'm honored. I truly am honored. And thank you for giving me this platform to spread the word.
Andrea: Yeah, it's an important one. It's an important message. So I'm happy to do it. Thank you, Michele. See you soon.
Michele: Bye.
Andrea: Bye.
Thank you for listening. Share this podcast with anyone you feel would benefit from its message. If you love what you heard, rate and review us wherever you listen. And if you feel that you could use some support, connect with me, Andrea Balboni, through my website, lushcoaching.com. That's L U S H C O A C H I N G dot com.
Special thanks to Nicholas Singer for the musical score, and Dion Knight for editing and production.